Can kink survive the rise of feminism?

edited January 8 in General
I used to have memberships for TTOO, SexAndSubmission and DivineBitches on here when the quality was good.

I cut my TTOO a long time ago since the quality really dropped ever since James Mogul left for the first time and it became a TUF feeder site. Now I don't even know why they keep that site running. It's just a second SexAndSub site. Such a shame the golden years with the likes of Delilah Strong, Bobbi Starr, Mz Berlin, Amber Rayne (RIP) etc. were amazing.

Second I left was DivineBitches since my favorite dommes stopped appearing in shoots and we were left with some that really feels like they just do it for the money. What bothers me more is that a few months ago I see the rise of Kink including feminism themes in their shoots for DB. Things like "punishing misogynistic men" and stuff like that which put a sour taste in my mouth. I feel like that site reached TTOO levels i.e. no chance of resubbing. DragonLily was so sensual in her dommination and Aiden Starr was more of the opposite where she'd straight up berate you but you'd still want to serve her. Kade's training was amazing and made me envy him. Not so much the fantasy of being "put in my place" because I'm an arrogant sexist male.

SexAndSubmission was the last site I had a subscription with. Like all other site quality dropped but this last shoot was bad based on the comments and description. I don't think a shoot like that had a place in a site called Sex and SUBMISSION. I miss the days when this site was about females submitting. That shoot with Charley Chase and Beverly Hills wouldn't have happened today since Kink really got soft.

Look feminism is absolutely needed out in the real world but I feel like it should be set aside on here in a sense that do not let it leak into the themes and tone of the scenes. Model safety and consent should obviously always be present. I'm a switch and have fantasies about submitting to women and dominating them. Aiden Starr is an absolute bitch and I'd love to get fucked by her but NOT if she's screaming "YEAH YOU WANT THAT YOU MISOGYNISTIC PIG" I just feel like both their main femdom and maledom site fails to hit the mark on both my fantasies and that is why I haven't opened my wallet after weekly checking of updates and comments.

On a side note anyone feel like pornstars today aren't game in submitting? A few years back we had A list pornstars like Lexi Belle, Sashe Grey, Eva Angelina etc. doing shoots. Now I feel like there's maybe 2-3 pornstars I recognize in the shoots that aren't veterans to kink. Femdom is also becoming a lost art. I see dommes really trying to force becoming a domme just so they could get financial tributes.

Comments

  • /reads the reviews of Sex and Submission's latest shoot.

    I can see what prompted this post.

    You only need to look at the description of virtually every shoot on DiB to see a problem. Every shoot is described with incredibly sexist, misandrist verbiage.

    It seems that whichever intern Madeline delegates the shoot descriptions to doesn't realise that it's not supposed to be about an entire gender being better than another.

    It's pretty much a porn site for women who genuinely hate men.

    Now, Madeline has argued in the past that this is what her male viewers want, and there's a veritable army of women out there paying off their student loans by doing POV videos with the same message, but even they realise that there's more to it than just hating men.

    Over on the other sites, it's very clear that this is the woman's fantasy and the men are just props in it. Nobody at Kink has ever answered a simple question: why are the male stars not interviewed at the start and end of a shoot? Isn't establishing what they want and that they consent too important?

    Let's dumb this down, the women on DiB should be the bad people, the 'perverts', not the men. It's not hard.

    And you're right, that shoot with Charley Chase and Beverly Hills was one of the best Kink has ever done and it wouldn't get made today. They're already submissive before the man laid a finger on them and are happy to be so. Now, the evil brutish man has to force them.

  • a) As far as I know, Madeline writes those herself.

    b) "Nobody at Kink has ever answered a simple question: why are the male stars not interviewed at the start and end of a shoot?" - the SUBS are interviewed at the beginning of the shoot, regardless of their gender. This is true for gay, straight, and ts content. This has nothing to do with feminism, it's all about showing our viewers that our subs are submitting of their own free will and understand what is going to take place.

    c) Maitresse Madeline and James Mogul are quite open to listening to constructive feedback and suggestions from members. Perhaps you could just comment on one of their newer shoots - "I'd like to see something more like ______" - have you tried that?
  • To answer your points.

    A - that's much worse.

    B - That's not true. There are plenty of shoots where the female doms are interviewed too. Where the male subs are interviewed it's often with the doms sitting above him. Which also begs the question of why they're sitting on the floor when the scene hasn't started yet.

    C - I've tried. The only people who ever paid any attention to what the reviews and the forums said were Matt Williams, who usually just gave one word answers, and Donna.
  • Oy! When kink uses misogynistic language, it's all in good fun, but tell one of these precious men that they're not perfect and suddenly it's feminism gone mad! It's fantasy; get the fuck over it, you misogynist! You're so delicate!
  • Oy! When kink uses misogynistic language, it's all in good fun, but tell one of these precious men that they're not perfect and suddenly it's feminism gone mad! It's fantasy; get the fuck over it, you misogynist! You're so delicate!
    So far this has been a civil discussion.

    The usual 'get over it', 'you disagree so you must be a muhsogerneest' bullshit won't wash here. Those are shallow, childish arguments that don't do anything constructive.

    This discussion was prompted by a Sex and Submission shoot in which, at least according to the comments, one of the male performers is violently murdered as part of the storyline.

    I doubt you'll find a shoot where a woman is killed at the end on Kink. I don't think the banks would like that. They're more likely to say it was all a dream.

    The general tone on Divine Bitches is that men are dirty perverts who must be punished. The general tone on Sex and Submission is that women are poor, innocent victims of predatory men.

    Since reading has, so far, not been your friend, I'll make it clear. Both sites are supposed to be fun for both genders and people who enjoy both dom and sub roles. At the moment, they aren't.

    Oh, and I've quoted your post to make sure there's a record of it after you inevitably delete or edit it.
  • edited January 13
    Oy! When kink uses misogynistic language, it's all in good fun, but tell one of these precious men that they're not perfect and suddenly it's feminism gone mad! It's fantasy; get the fuck over it, you misogynist! You're so delicate!
    You miss the point man. As I said in my post I'm a switch and get turned on being dominated. Language like "You are now the property of the divine bitches" is fucking hot and in good fun too (got a boner recalling that line from Ms. Aiden Starr btw.) but language like "Yeah you're a misogynistic pig and a supporter of patriarchy" makes me go wtf?

    I hoped to get a civil discussion about this but I fully expected someone reading this and going all 'misogynistic pig!!" I'm just saying there's a stark difference from shoots during 2013-2015 to shoots from before the 2010s.

  • edited January 13


    c) Maitresse Madeline and James Mogul are quite open to listening to constructive feedback and suggestions from members. Perhaps you could just comment on one of their newer shoots - "I'd like to see something more like ______" - have you tried that?
    I tried that with TTOO a long time ago. I commented on shoots and the TTOO forums begging them to bring back the old four days slave training format. Nothing changed so I just decided to download all my favorite videos in HD and keep it on two separate hard drives. That's how much I loved your old stuff but checking on your weekly updates i don't even get a slight tinge to get a new subscription. Your latest S&S shoot just made me so sad at the direction kink is trying to go that it prompted me to make a new account and post about it.
  • Why not? There's more than a few women here on the forums too...
  • As one of the women here...I agree with Sonia!
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  • IMO "Feminism" has to do with the DIB discussion only. But I think that's the idea of the DIB site in the first place.
    The rest seem to be complaints about Kink sites in general. Valid complaints, btw.
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  • Hi Naturaling,

    TTOO… my Frankenstein. Those first few years were amazing - and completely draining. That site drove me to drink like a fish and run my life into the ground from workaholism. Unsustainable is putting it mildly. Today TTOO is what it is: hot babes getting fucked in bondage and learning something simple along the way. Take it for what it is. Maybe someday I'll have the chance to do full four day trainings again, but not today.

    SAS lost it's founder and director some time ago, and the site struggled as the company tried to fill the helm slot. After some time, for better or worse, SAS ended up in my hands. We are still learning what works and what does not and hopefully delivering some good content along the way.

    The movie you reference, Anal Psycho, where Xander is shot, is a movie that we made with no thought about feminism. Whatever feminist / misogynist undertones people read into the movies are their own. We are making fantasy movies, not sexual politics.

    Cheers,
    James Mogul
  • It manifests itself in the shoots themselves, the choice of models, storylines, activities and so on,

    Who is S&S for? Is it for submissive women who want to imagine themselves in the scenarios presented? Or is it for dominant male viewers who want to imagine having a submissive woman?

    There are subtle differences. Does the site use porn star type models or more natural women? Does the camera focus on the man more than a generic porn shoot? And are the men in the shoots the protagonists or are they big bad boogeymen?

    Similarly, with Divine Bitches you ask who it's for. Is it for submissive men or dominant women? The dommes screaming straw feminist dialogue would seem to suggest an answer to that question. As would the whole 'men are pigs' message the site projects.

    The model choices, which are often sourced from Kink's gay sites, also speak to this.

    If it was for men, the camera would spend more time focused on the women, the wardbrobe wouldn't be quite so weird (that's the best word for it I can come up with) and the interviews would absolutely not include the dommes ever. They should be about what he wants to do and, like the men on S&S, the dommes should be there to help them do it.

    There would be a lot less shoots with multiple men in them too.

    The thing is that you can't make porn that everyone will like. You make it so one person likes it a bit more and you make else someone like it a bit less. And so it follows that if you make one gender like it a bit more you make the other like it a bit less.


  • The movie you reference, Anal Psycho, where Xander is shot, is a movie that we made with no thought about feminism. Whatever feminist / misogynist undertones people read into the movies are their own. We are making fantasy movies, not sexual politics.
    The question remains, would Kink ever do a Divine Bitches shoot where the male submissive murders the domme at the end?
  • The question remains, would Kink ever do a Divine Bitches shoot where the male submissive murders the domme at the end?

    weyon - I do not know the answer to that question - that is entirely up to one person.
  • ...WTF..., as James M says 'The movie you reference, Anal Psycho, where Xander is shot, is a movie that we made with no thought about feminism. Whatever feminist / misogynist undertones people read into the movies are their own. We are making fantasy movies, not sexual politics'
  • With Kink abandoning the Armory to shoot in "other" locations, Kink may be facing issues other than "The Rise of Feminism".
  • ...WTF..., as James M says 'The movie you reference, Anal Psycho, where Xander is shot, is a movie that we made with no thought about feminism. Whatever feminist / misogynist undertones people read into the movies are their own. We are making fantasy movies, not sexual politics'
    I too read James post. He didn't answer the question.

    I don't see Kink doing a shoot where Mike Panic gets up at the end of it and murders Aiden Starr, just to pick a couple of names out of the air.

    Nor do I see a man screaming 'go back to the kitchen!' at a female submissive either.
  • With Kink abandoning the Armory to shoot in "other" locations, Kink may be facing issues other than "The Rise of Feminism".
    Not if it causes paying customers to stop paying.

    Kink's moved offices before. Getting out of the Armory and not being limited to the same old sets they have there might breathe new life in to Whipped Ass, for starters.
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